Wednesday, June 6

The Hammer of Witches

This infamous book was responsible for taking the lives of approximately 5 million women between the 15th and 17th centuries. The Hammer of Witches, or Malleus Maleficorum, was the judges' bible in witch-hunts which spread throughout Europe in the late Middle Ages. Women who showed any signs of character, refused to obey their husbands, or had radical opinions were considered evil witches and faced trials in front of special courts. When a suspect is charged with witchcraft, those women received a death sentence, not jail. Executions took place in public, where the guilty women were burned at the stake.

And why was it only women who were charged of this crime? Because, like today, it was a common belief that women are weaker and have got weaker faith. That's why it was easy for the devil to lure them into this dark art in order to spread evil on earth. As stupid as it sounds, it doesn't seem like an outdated rationale to me.
Read more about Malleus Maleficorum here and here.
The Hammer of Witches, I believe, is not merely the product of the Dark Ages, but was reproduced one age after another. Up till now, a woman who is independent, a woman who questions social costumes and traditions, a woman who refuses to be an inferior, a woman who stands up for herself is considered to be an evil witch. However, this "witch" doesn't face legal trial, but rather a social one, where almost every member in society will have his/her say in her case and use their hammers to make her comply with their rules. The social hammers surround women everywhere to make sure they knock down any signs of free thinking or rebellion in their early beginnings.

An innocent little girl taking her first steps into life finds a world which isn't welcoming.. a world of boundaries, a world of shame, a world of fierce eyes, a world full of restrictions, a world which does not respect her innocence. If she happens to have a brother she will learn very early that not every child receives the same treatment. She learns that she is the problem. She came into a world that has no place for her, a world for the males, where females are imprisoned and prepared to serve them in a later stage of life. She lives in continuous fear, being deprived of playing with other boys, being forced to hide under a bundle of clothes, being warned not to explore her own body, being raised as an object which always belongs to somebody else (whether her parents or her husband). If she tries to understand why, the hammers are ready to forbid her from asking. If she rejects this treatment, the hammers will punish her. If she went as far as breaking those rules, the hammers will discipline her. And if she insists on her freedom, the sentence is ready: she shall be an outcast.

But the hammer today is not only for rebellious witches and free thinkers; it is also for the innocent. As long as you are a female, you are a criminal. You will be a suspect as long as you are single. You will be slave as long as you are married. You will be despised if you are divorced. You will be the talk of the town if you break an engagement. You will be harassed as long as you walk down the street. You will be a whore as long as you aren't veiled. You will be evil as long as you don't share the interests of old housewives. You will be a witch as long as you are a woman. That's the law of our society.

34 comments:

Eyad Harfoush said...

My Dear Fantasia,
I am amazed you wrote about "Mallevs Maleficarom" as I did myself few months ago as part of my book "Code Trial" hereunder part of it:
ما هو كتاب الماليوس ميلفيكاروم (مطرقة الساحرات)؟
هو كتاب باللاتينية نشرته الكنيسة في القرون الوسطى إبان عصر محاكم التفتيش و يتكون من 3 أجزاء:
1. الجزأ الأول:
و يعالج الثلاثي اللازم لتحقيق السحر في نظرهم و هو الشيطان + الساحرة + إذن الرب بحدوث و فاعلية السحر
2. الجزأ الثاني:
و يعالج كيفية كتابة و عمل السحر من قبل الساحرات و كيف يمكن مواجهته و حله
3. الجزأ الثالث:
و يعالج ما الذي يمكن للمسيحي المؤمن أن يفعله ليساعد العدالة بتقديم الساحرات إلى المحكمة الكنسية (محكمة التفتيش) أو المحاكم المدنية بتهمة السحر، و فيه تحريض قوي على تقديم كل من يشتبه بممارسته للسحر إلى المحكمة من قبل الجماهير التي تشتبه به، و بالتواتر وحده دون الحاجة لدليل مادي

ما مدى دقة رقم 5 ملايين إمرأة اللاتي يدعي الكتاب أنهن أحرقن في محاكم التفتيش؟

تراوحت التقديرات التي بين يدينا في 4 مراجع ما بين عدة تقديرات لعدد الساحرات:
- 12000
- 40000
- 60000
- 100000

و لم نجد أية مصدر لرقم 5 ملايين الذي أورده الكتاب، و لو ربطناه برقم 300 سنة التي يفترض أنها حدثت خلالها هذه الأحداث سنجد أن لدينا المعادلة التالية:
5000000/ 300 سنة / 365 يوم = 45 حالة إعدام بالحرق يوميا في المتوسط

و نحن نرى أن المبالغة شديدة في هذا الرقم. و قد يكون السبب هو خلط رقم إعدام الساحرات برقم إعدامات محاكم التفتيش بصفة عامة و لكافة الأسباب. و التي كان من ضمنها إعتناق الأديان الأخرى مثل الإسلام في أسبانيا ، و اليهودية، بل و الطوائف المسيحية غير الكاثوليكية، و كذلك الكاثوليك المتهمين بالهرطقة في الفكر الديني ، و غيرهم

و نحن لا نرى ما يدعو للمبالغة في الرقم و التي أوردها "براون" في روايته ، فعلى أقل التقديرات رقم 12000 إمرأة إنتزعت من بيتها و أولادها و اتهمت بتهمة غيبية و حوكمت على ما تعتقده في قلبها أو بناء على مكيدات صبيانية كما أثبت التاريخ، لهو جريمة مرعبة بدرجة كافية لا تحتاج إلى مبالغات و خاصة لو إقترفتها جهة دينية تمثل دين الحب و السلام الذي دعا به المسيح، خاصة لو علمنا أن إعتذارات البابا جون بول الثاني الغزيرة و التي شملت الإعتذار عما يراه أخطاء الكنيسة في عصور سابقة بمناسبة بداية الألفية، و منها الإعتذار لليهود عن إضطهادهم، و للمسلمين عن الغزوات الصليبية و الإعتذار للصين و غيرها ، لم تشمل الإعتذار عن محاكم من دعتهم الكنيسة وقتها بالساحرات، مما يشير الى أن الكنيسة لا ترى حتى الآن ذنبا فيما اقترفت.

هل تمنع الأديان السماوية قيام المرأة بالقيادة الدينية؟
نعم، و لكن ليس بالصورة المبسطة التي أوردها "براون" عن عدم إمكانية وجود شيخات مسلمات ( و هذا غير صحيح بالنسبة للإسلام) أو كاهنات سيدات. و لكن النزعة الذكورية في التفسير و الفهم الشائع للأديان السماوية، يميل أحياناً إلى الذكورة، و ذلك لنشأة هذه الأديان في مجتمعات ذكورية بطريركية، مما أدى لتأثرها بمجتمعاتها، و ذلك لا يعني بالطبع أن الأديان السماوية نفسها تضطهد الأنثى، و لكنه ميل المتبعين للأديان و القائمين عليها - و هم غالباً من الرجال - إلى تفسير الأديان تفسيراً يخدم سلطة الذكر.

و من ذلك في الفقه الاسلامي مثلا رفض إمامة المرأة للرجل و كذلك رفض إمامة المخنث لإحتمال أنه إمراة !! ، و أيضا قطع المرأة و الكلب للصلاة لو مرت أمام المصلي، فنحن نجد أن عدم إمامة المرأة للرجل ترجع إلى عدم لياقة أن تقف المرأة أمام الرجل منثنية في الركوع و السجود مما قد يؤدي إلى إثارة أحد المأمومين جنسياً، و هو منطق محكم و مقبول عقلاً، أما موضوع إمامة المخنث و قطع المرأة للصلاة فلا نعتقد فيهما الصحة لعدم منطقيتهما مع عدم ورود نص قطعي الثبوت بشأنهما، و الله أعلم.

و كلها مفاهيم لا تتعلق بالأديان السماوية قدر ما تتعلق برجال الدين الذين صبغوه بالصبغة الذكورية. لتدعيم سيطرتهم على أتباعهم من ناحية و لإيجاد شكل من أشكال الإرهاب الجنسي الذي يترجم إلى حالة عدم توازن نفسي تسهل السيطرة على الشخص الغير متوازن.

Sorry for the long comment

The Alien said...

nice post, i knew too littel about Malleus Maleficorum, so thanks for talking about it and thanks for eyad who gave alot of useful information about it too.

i am too busy nowadays, that's why i can't comment on the post but i promiss to come back and comment soon
keep writing

Bassam said...

Dear Fantasia,
It has been a while since I commented on your posts. The reason for that is, you are too harsh on men!!
I almost always agreed with what you have to say, but I couldn't overlook your generalization. I also thought you should be harsh on women as well because they don't take actions.
In this post however, you mostly replaced 'men' with 'society'. It's like a miracle!!
All of the sudden I can read what you write without being insulted. without feeling ashemed of being a man.
We are a society, we are not strictly men and women, we are not strictly criminals and victims. Men created inequality, however, the way our socity function today, is a reflection to all of our collective behaviour.
You replaced men with socity and it made a lot of sense.
I bit you a 100$ that about 50% of the "witches" were reported by women.
A women who is not veiled well be judged as a whore not only by men but also by women, she will be judged by the socity.

اجندا حمرا said...

Fantastia
what a strong post
i cant get enough from your wonderful posts and the strong message they deliver.

u know what dear?sometimes i dont know whether men r the ones to be blamed for their inferior look to women or we should blame society on this ,society in which men r raised to belive that women r they objects of desire and just a piece of meat
u can hear about men who r open minded and have a better understanding for women that they r outcast ,not normal,not men enough
the open minded men today r regarded r not men enough when they ask for freedom for women
cause the idea of a real man in this society is to regard women as inferior to them,put on this earth to serve them and fullfill their desires and to hell with their own desires
women r not allowed to say what they want from their men cause if they do so they will be regarded as whores .
men like to be playboys and to have so many girlfriends but for a girl to have a boyfriend is a big scandel
when a playboy decides to marry a girl
the first thing he wants her to be is moltazema i think men like this r leading a double personality

thank u for your strong posts:-)

She said...

fantasia, you are a smart girl, but what you need to realise is that women in Egypt are getting crap because people are getting more into their religion. The same religion that says it's okay to beat your wife and that a woman is so stupid you need two of them to testify and it's okay for a guy to have 4 wives but not the other way round. You know as well as I do that we derive our attitudes from our culture, the culture that is based on islam.

Wake up and smell the roses honey.

Eyad Harfoush said...

Dear She,
I agree there is a good part of discrimination is religion based. Yet, it is due to religious men misperceptions not the religion itself. I researched and wrote in this subject in both Christianity and Islam. They are both far away from discriminating

Secondly, our culture is not based on Islam, it has several elements in my view:
1- Genuine Egyptian element, arising from ancient Egyptian civilization
2- Meditranian Helinistic element, due to greco-roman interaction
3- Coptic christian element
4- Arabic Islamic element

The stain you see now just started in 1970s when a lousy man happened to be a prisedent. and played with fundumentalist fire, giving it all the required fuel with governmental support

Fantasia said...

eyad:
Where can I get your books?
It is true that this book was mentioned in Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code as an example of how hostile the old Christian world had turned against females. Estimations went as far as 9,000,000 victims, however. I therefore took the average, which was also the figure mentioned in Dan Brown's novel.
The book itself will be very boring for the modern reader, but it is very interesting to see how the writers keep urging citizens to report any case which they suspect, and the methods of witchcraft that they describe in details, as if they are dealing with scientific facts. It is amazed how a person can be so misled and yet able to mislead millions in such a way.

Fantasia said...

the alien:
Waiting for your comment..

Fantasia said...

bassam:
I don't know why you take my criticism of men personally. I don't mean to insult anybody. It is clear that I criticise a certain type of men, they are the majority, but they aren't 100% of them. I can't possibly criticise society without criticising men, though. Cause this is a patriarchal society, led by men. Men decide which directions the society takes in judgeing everything, they are the sole planners of its road map. Women are merely followers of those rules. If they make mistakes, it is because this is how they were raised and this is how this patriarchal society wants them to be.
Don't take things personally. Try to read with your mind and be objective.

Fantasia said...

Dear agenda,
Missed your insightful comments.
Well, I believe both men and women should be blamed, but as I said to Bassam, men take the bigger blame because they are the leaders of society. If there had been true equality, they should have shared equal responsibilities.
Women are to blame because they just surrender to those social customs and rules without questioning them, or they question them and then decide to follow them anyway out of fear and lack of self-confidence. I believe the second type of women are the worse. Women who haven't got the awareness to enable them to see their inferior position have got an excuse. But those who know, and just decide to step down on everything they know in order to get along with a fake mask to please society are a curse. Not only aren't they doing anything to spread awareness and urge for change, but they are also leading others to think that this is the way things should be. If my female teachers, professors, doctors, writers, who are supposed to be the elites and the model for other women, just follow the social norms, what will make me even question them? Those women have got a certain duty that comes with the knowledge they attained.
A mother who has suffered all her life from oppression and then raises her kids to follow the same social rules, diffentiating between her son and daughter, is a criminal in my point of view. She is just reproducing her tragedy again.

Fantasia said...

She:
I am smelling the roses very well dear. And all what you said is true. But I wrote this post to show how at a different point in history, in a different place, followers of a different religion have done the same mistakes we are doing nowadays. Look at the condition of women in those countries now and compare them to ours. We haven't learned the lesson. We failed not because we follow a religion that has all of those terms you mentioned, but simply because a retarded society will provide a retarded interpretation of its religion and use it to legalize its actions.
People who burned those millions of witches did it out of a Christian faith, although Christianity is a religion of forgiveness and love. It is the way they interpreted their religion at a certain time. Islam didn't have this ugly face only 30 years ago, as Eyad said. At least not in Egypt.

Miss Egyptiana "Trapped Soul" said...

duality is the curse our whole society live in:

believe in something and do something totally different

men and women ... and the correction will begin when we unify our thougts

still .... i am glad i am a witch :)

Eyad Harfoush said...

Dear Fantasia,
my mail is eharfoush@gmail.com. Please e-mail me and will reply back with the book attached in pdf. I owe you a confession, until 2 days ago I was on my belief that our curse is lack of liberty that leads to duality as Egyptiana said, for both male and female. Yet, an incident happened to change my standpoint, when I realized how the way we treat our daughters agonizes them in their future, I have the courage to say we both suffer yes, but females pays much more. We argued about it one day, I thought it is your right to know, you were right about it. Thanks

J said...

fantasia, i thought from your blog you were smart enough not to hide behind the lame chicken that is 'interpretation'. The world isn't relative, truth does exist and somethings are there whether you wish to accept them or not. When a text says you can beat your wife, then there is very little interpretation differences there. Why does it not say that a woman can beat her husband then?

do you know what the bible says about women? Please read the bible and then come back and tell me what you think.

Burning of witches is not a question of interpretation, it's a question of not following the bible's teaching about women. To say you are doing something in God's name is not enough, it has to be justified from the text IN context.

the first people to see Jesus rise from the dead were who? Women. Why do you think i mention this? Because under jewish law at that time and islamic law today, a woman's testimony is worthless, yet Jesus chose women to testify to his resurrection. So what you say? Well the resurrection is Jesus' claim to being God, so leaving it to women is him making a a very very big statement.

There was a woman caught in adultery and all the "religious" people wanted to stone her, but Jesus rebuked them.

In Ephesians 6 I think, Read what it says about how husbands are supposed to treat their wives. It says: "husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church." So what did Christ do for the church? He sacrificed his life for the church, so a husband is to love his wife sacrificially. That then makes submission much easier!

Read the genealogy of Jesus Christ in every gospel: mark, luke, john, matthew. there are women in the genealogy! Find me any other geneaology from that time with women. There are even prostitutes in there too, like Rahab.

Nowhere in the bible does it say you can beat your wife or that her testimony is not the same as that of a man (see first point). It's not a question of interepretation, it's a question of truth.

she said...

eyad and fantasia

I think we can all agree that the predominant influence today on egyptian culture is islam. It has been around for nearly 1500 years. The other elements were wiped out long ago.

You' re blaming men groping women in the street on Sadat? Interesting choice of scapegoat.

Everyone keeps saying this is extremism etc etc. Egypt is going the route of Saudi Arabia which has been functioning on the basis that women are inferior circa a very long time ago. I am not talking about their legislation eg women not allowed to drive etc, just look at how men treat their women. The best place for that is to get into a Saudi hospital and check out some of the common reasons for women's admissions. Horrific beatings and not diabetes top the list.

Stop burying your heads in the sand.

Eyad Harfoush said...

Dear She,
If you bothered to have a look on my blog you would have known that buried head is not my style. And by the way, I am not even religious, so I am not defending Islam out of being blinded by a faith, but out of trial to be subjective. I am speaking based on prolonged research. What you see in Saudi is a mix of Wahabism (the worst stream in Islamic ideologies) with bedwian nature. Egypt is taking steps toward that as well since 70s, when we allowed unskilled labor to be contracted, being low educated they came back with all kinds of shit Wahabis claim in their heads, that is it.

Fantasia said...

egyptiana:
LOL @ "I am glad I am a witch." That's the spirit girl.
The dual nature of our society I guess is because it has set for itself a set of rules and customs that are too strict and reveal ignorance with the human nature in almost all its aspects: psychological, physical, emotional, rational.. etc. That's why instead of admitting that those rules don't work, and instead of working on a more logical and human social code, they just leave things the way they are and move around them. Pathetic!

Fantasia said...

j & She:
Let's first agree that we are not in a comparative religion class. I don't hide behind anything, I speak my mind so frankly as you might have seen here.
The way I see it, any religion is an ideology, expressing a set of ideas and demanding that people bear who believe in its ideals follow its rules. I see religious ideology the same as any other, political, economical, social, you name it. Followers of any ideology are not all the same, they differ by their different selections which they bring into action.
Let me express this more clearly. Islam is not the same everywhere, because each culture that adopts the Islamic ideology selects what they want out of it. For example, in the time of Egyptian Renaissance, Islamic figures, like Mohamed Abdou, focused on the parts of Islam which encourage development and mental freedom. Unlike what is happening nowadays, when we see the fundamentalist version which focuses on appearances and rules of worship. Bin Laden chose to focus of Jihad. And so on. Every culture at a certain point of time chooses which ideas to get out of the box. The hadith of breastfeeding adults which shocked everybody recently has been there for 1400 years. But the majority of muslims (especially Egyptian muslims) didn't know about it, cause the version that was selected for them disregarded this hadith. It is a selective process after all.
Every Muslim country has the religious heads who select this country's religious background. They choose what to include and what to exclude. They make movies about the time of Muhammed from a specific point of view, choosing what to mention and what to shut about. They choose what to write in religion textbooks. They choose the topics to raise at a certain time... etc.
I believe the same applies to any other religion. There are things that are unspoken of, not because they are not there, but because we weren't granted access to them by those who decide for us.
Believe me, I don't have red lines, and I am not the type of person who throws some comforting words so that everybody is happy in the end. I just wish that we would all think out of the boxes that we are confined to. Let's not say this religion or that, cause as I said in my post and in an earlier comment, it is a cycle. Certain cultures commit mistakes until they reach maturity. It happened that our culture relapsed into childhood.

اجندا حمرا said...

dear fantasia
thank u sweets for your nice words
i miss your blog and your posts when im not around:-)

i agree with u in what u r saying if there is equality then women should be blamed as much as we r blaming men
but as men r taking the lead and they r enjoying this and dont wanna give it up so they have to take the blame for what's happening
that doesnt mean women shouldnt be blamed
women should start to think about their future ,to not depend fully on men
to change their ideas about the marriage as if it is like del ragel wala del 7eta
women shouldnt give up and get married just because they r starting to enter their 30th ,they shouldnt listen to those around them saying u r 3anes(what an annoying word:(
the problem in our society in any thing in life here is that we r not allowed to question anything cause if we started questioning things
they will start accusing us of being bad ,without morals,rebellions
but so what?should that deprive us from our right to speak our minds?i think this shouldnt stop us from speaking our minds and saying what we think of without hiding behind masks
nobody will give us our rights unless we ask for them
u r right dear women who dont have much awereness enabling them to see their rights and ask for them shouldnt be blamed like those who knows they have rights but decides to give them up so as not to enter in a battle
they choose the easiest way
i totally agree with u dear about the mother who suffered inequality with her brothers during her childhood
she should have been the best candidate to not do the same mistake again but unfortunately she does it later with her daughters and sons

اجندا حمرا said...

fantasia
i read your comment to j& she
cant help it girl i admire all of what u said specially when u mentioned that religion is being presented to people during different ages according to what they want them to read and know and the things they dont present doesnt mean they r not there but it means they dont want people to know about them
i think it is people's duty to start searching by themselves and not to wait till others give them the knowledge on a plate of gold
i think through this people will get closer to the truth without any masks or things they r not allowed to read cause it will be infront of them
thank u for the strong comment and for the wonderful blog:-)

she said...

well you did start the comparative religion by claiming that christianity and burning of people was linked.

fantasia, you present yourself as someone who is openminded and willing to take on all ideas except you completely disregard what I said and did not respond to it. Your arguments are not based on fact because you are making generalised arguments about all "religions" when you have no idea what the bible says about women.

The bible is taken as a whole. You are not to take away or add to it. Therefore you should give credit where credit is due....it says love your wives sacrificially... it won't say batter your wives in another culture or another timeperiod.

"Islamic figures, like Mohamed Abdou, focused on the parts of Islam which encourage development and mental freedom." That means they took the bits they wanted to take. If you take the book as a whole you will find that mental freedom is not really allowed for example it says converts should be killed.

You need to ask yourself, it islam is a religion of equality then why does it not say that women can beat their husbands?

"because they are not there, but because we weren't granted access to them by those who decide for us."

what's stopping you from reading things first hand? It's in your language so read and decide for yourself, you think outside of the box, then don't be a sheep and follow what 'those who decide for us' tell u.

It's funny, I was brought up in a secular/relativistic culture so I know all this but this stuff seems to be hitting egypt for the first time and everyone is really happy that they have some "alternative" explanation.

Eyad Harfoush said...

Dear She,
I think your claim here is "christianity is more fair than Islam to female"
My opponent claim is "both are fair when understood properly, both are agonizing as they are practised today"

If you can defend your claim, please inform the way we criticse each other concepts logically (like if you have a blog, or it can be on mine, or whatever you like) as I do not want to drift Fantasia's blog from its original direction. Thanks

Fantasia said...

Dear agenda,

Thank you so much for those comments. You have such an open heart and mind. You can now see what I got myself into. I prefer the calm logical argumenls as opposed to those who are so prejudiced and provokative. I know that some people will go through my posts not for reading them or understanding the message behind them, but only to argue about anything or to criticise blindly. I guess I have to get used to this now that I brought it all upon myself.
But to know that there are people like you who really appreciate what I present, is like a drink of water in the middle of a desert.

Fantasia said...

She..
Hold it please right there. If your aim is to provoke me, I am not easily provoked. I still carry on this discussion with good wills. But you using words like "sheep" really makes it difficult for me.
First of all, if you had read what I wrote carefully, you would have noticed that I never said that christianity and burning people were linked. Where have I said that? I said those people used religion to justify their acts.
I wanna tell you that I read the bible when I was 10. Not only the bible, but I read about Buddhism and Hinduism too.
I avoid talking about religions cause I respect them all. I won't go about finding faults in any. But all religions go through this process of selection and different readings. I don't have to quote from the bible how men were placed above women, or how women were not supposed to talk at church even to ask a religious question, but was ordered to wait to ask her husband at home, or how women were ordered to be veiled as opposed to men. I don't want to get into these details because texts only come to life through people. How many muslim men actually beat their wives? A very slim percentage, and they do it out of rage not as punishment. And how does society view a man who beats his wife? They despise him. Men don't need an order from God to beat their wives. And it's not only muslim men who do it. Many verses in Qur'an urge men to treat their wives lovingly and to care for them. People select from the text what they bring into action in real life.

Egypt Rose said...

الدين لله و الوطن للجميع .. حبتو مصر النهاردة .. فانتازيا جائت بمثل من التاريخ لاسقاطة على الواقع الحالي و الموضوع هكذا ليس الا .. الطريق طويل ومش عيزين نهدم بعض أو نحجر على اراء بعض او ندخل في مناظرات هدامة لن يأتي من ورائها اى جديد أو مفيد .. دانا بحلم باقل قليل .. اكل وشرب نظيف و اتعلم اكتب اسمي .. صحتي تبقي حلوة ومحدش يضحك على .. اعيش في امان .. ده خطوه اولي والسلم طويل .. اللى هيساعدني يا ريت ..اللى مش يمش .. حنتو مصر النهارده

she said...

fantasia, i do not mean to provoke you at all. It is not my intention to provoke but rather to assess truth instead of hide from it. I feel it is futile because you selectively choose to respond to issues you want to respond to. I asked you several times if islam was about equality then why should women not be allowed to beat their husbands. yet you shirk answering those questions. I challenge you to make your own evaluations and not depend on people and you pick on the unfortunate use of the word 'sheep' which i retract. The bible asks women to veil their heads in prayer as a mark of respect yes but it doesn't of men, God has given the role of teaching and preaching in the church to men not women, that is true. Different roles does not somehow equate to inferiority. The fact still remains that men are not told they can beat their wives. You need to accept that. I think it is time to update your knowledge of christianity before you make generalised comments about it.

"People who burned those millions of witches did it out of a Christian faith, although Christianity is a religion of forgiveness and love." is what you said. That is linking christianity and burning of witches. I am not criticising blindly contrary to your claim: "First of all, if you had read what I wrote carefully, you would have noticed that I never said that christianity and burning people were linked." With all due respect you need to read your posts before criticising people's reactions.

"How many muslim men actually beat their wives? A very slim percentage, and they do it out of rage not as punishment."

I don't care how many men do it or don't do it. that is not the point. The point is it states that a man can beat his wife!!!! "They do it out of rage" oh how comforting. If you marry a wife beater, you can be comforted that your broken rib is out of rage and not punishment. MEn should not beat women at all no matter what the reason!!!! I guess you won't mind being thrashed by your husband if he comes in angry from work then. This is unbelievable!

This is my last post, as every point i raise is ignored which makes posting a bit pointless. Thankyou for your hosting anyway.

eyad, All I am saying is to accept what every book says about women without trying to pretend that some verses don't exist.I have said before that the bible states unequivocally that the man should love his wife sacrificially. To lay down one's life, that is the greatest act of love. I know that the koran does not say that. This whole blog exists in denying many key verses about women in the quran and their inferior status. Thankyou for your invite to discuss on your blog. I might take it up sometime but I think I have made my point clearly for now.

Eyad Harfoush said...

Dear She,

Read on the link hereunder, about seven texts, Quran verses & Hadieth, with explanation of each. About selecting the time for discussion, have all the time you need to discuss with a theology lover. Regards

http://eharfoush.blogspot.com/2007/05/2.html

اجندا حمرا said...

dear fantasia
u r more than welcome always dear:-)u too have got such bright personality and open heart and knowledge as well;)
me too prefer the calm logical conversations instead of wasting time trying to provoke each other
the point is that some people enter blogs and comment just to say anything ,sometimes they dont even read the whole article but they have some rage inside of them ,they want to vent it out at someone
the most important thing is to read and try to understand and even if we didnt understand anything to ask for help it doesnt take from our dignity to ask for help over something we dont know ,i find it quite the opposite ,we will gain respect from others cause we will appear infront of them wanting to know
whatever our points of view toward anything raised,it is our duty to respect each other,even if we dont agree with everything being said
thank u for your nice comment about me Fantasia but your blog really is very different and i truly admire the articles u talk about,it is like something i havent read before and knowing that in this world there r such open minded people like u,fantasia ,makes me feel relieved somehow and sure i will always support u my dear and i hope we can always enjoy exchanging points of views over your articles
plz accept my total admiration to everything u write and i wish u good luck always:-)

Fantasia said...

egypt rose:
Thanks for your comment. Hope everybody will listen to the voice of reason and realise the love that shall unite us forever.

Fantasia said...

She:
Your misunderstanding of every single word I write is intentional. Sorry, but I couldn't help noticing that. I realise now that I don't have to express myself anymore or rephrase my thoughts, cause you have one and only aim on your mind. You think I avoid answering your questions because you want a specific answer and you won't take any other. I have a totally different point of view, and thus my answer will always be different from the one you want. Read again what I had said.

Fantasia said...

agenda:
Wonderful as usual.. Reading your comments is a pleasure in the middle of this cyber space with all the loud voices babbling around. Thanks for eveything you said. It gives me lots of strength when I realise I'm not an alien, and that what I say really has a value to some people. That's why our voices need to unite to be able to raise them and reach the wider masses.

I said...

you need to think about truth and accept it fantasia. Good luck!

اجندا حمرا said...

dear fantasia
first of all i missed communicating with u,sorry havent been well lately but im glad im back interacting with u dear:-)
thank u for all of your sweet words about my comments,actually u r an inspiration for all of us visiting your wonderful blog and it is my pleasure actually to come here and comment on every issue u r talking about here

when we r different dear each one of us thinks she is an alien,an outcast when actually if we r united we will find we r a wide group ,it doesnt matter we think different than others,what really matters is that we belive in what we r saying so keep the good work dear ,we r all with u:-)

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